Chapter 7: Three Debates
Cheng Fan asked Master Mozi, “You have said, ‘Sage kings do not engage in music.’ Yet in the past, when feudal lords grew weary from governing, they rested to the music of bells and drums; when officials grew weary from governing, they rested to the music of yu flutes and se zithers; and when farmers toiled in spring plowing, summer weeding, autumn harvesting, and winter storing, they rested to the music of striking earthen pots. Now you say, ‘Sage kings do not engage in music.’ This is like keeping a horse harnessed without ever unhitching it, or keeping a bow drawn without ever relaxing it. Is this not beyond the capacity of beings of flesh and blood?”
Master Mozi replied, “In ancient times, Yao and Shun lived in thatched cottages; they considered this simplicity as both ritual and music. Tang banished Jie to the great waters, unified the world, and established himself as king. Having achieved success without major lingering troubles, he adopted the music of the former kings and composed new music, naming it Hu (Protection), and also revised the Nine Shao. King Wu defeated the Yin dynasty and killed Zhou, unified the world, and established himself as king. Having achieved success without major lingering troubles, he adopted the music of the former kings and composed new music, naming it Xiang (Symbol). King Cheng of Zhou adopted the music of the former kings and composed new music, naming it Zouyu. Yet, King Cheng’s governance of the world was not as good as King Wu’s; King Wu’s governance was not as good as Tang’s; and Tang’s governance was not as good as Yao and Shun’s. From this we can observe: the more elaborate the music, the less effective the governance. Viewed in this light, music is not the means by which the world is governed.”
Cheng Fan said, “You say, ‘Sage kings have no music.’ But these examples you mentioned are indeed music. How, then, can you say that sage kings have no music?” Master Mozi replied, “The principle of the sage kings is: is it better to have more or less? Take eating, for example: its benefit lies in its sufficiency. Knowing one is hungry and eating is wisdom; but to claim that eating itself is wisdom would be wrong. Now, although the sages have music, it is so minimal that it is tantamount to having none.”
Note
This chapter records a debate between Mozi and Cheng Fan on music. Mozi argues elaborate court music worsens governance; sage kings only kept minimal music, as grand musical indulgence wastes resources and distracts rulers from state duties.
Yao and Shun:
The legendary sage kings of antiquity, representing the pinnacle of moral governance and extreme frugality. They lived in simple thatched cottages and are cited by Mozi as the ultimate ideal.
Tang and King Wu:
The founders of the Shang and Zhou dynasties, respectively. While recognized as sage kings, Mozi ranks their governance slightly below Yao and Shun, using them to illustrate a gradual historical decline in political perfection.
King Cheng of Zhou:
The second ruler of the Zhou dynasty. His reign is used by Mozi as the lowest benchmark among the sage kings to demonstrate the inverse correlation between musical elaboration and political efficacy.
Jie and Zhou:
The tyrannical last rulers of the Xia and Shang dynasties. Tang and King Wu’s military campaigns against them are cited as the pivotal moments of dynastic transition.
Cheng Fan:
A disciple or interlocutor of Mozi who raises a pragmatic objection regarding human nature and the necessity of rest, serving as a dialectical foil in this debate.
Condemnation of Music:
The central Mohist doctrine. Mozi does not deny the sensory pleasure of music but argues that it is economically wasteful and politically useless. He believes resources spent on music should be redirected toward basic human needs and state defense.
Inverse Correlation of Music and Governance:
Mozi introduces a historical-empirical argument: as dynasties progressed from Yao/Shun to King Cheng, musical compositions became more elaborate, but the quality of governance declined. This challenges the Confucian view that refined music is essential for moral education and social harmony.
Mozi’s concept of “Rejecting Music” centers on opposition to the traditional ritual and music system of the Zhou Dynasty, which was highly subversive in his era. Historical records document that Mozi was imprisoned in the State of Song for this doctrine, and Xunzi also notes that his stance against music nearly brought him criminal punishment.
In the Pre-Qin period, ritual and music served as an exclusive symbol of sovereign power for rulers, and Mozi’s advocacy of “Rejecting Music” essentially challenged established authority. In fact, Mozi did not entirely negate music itself. He believed that music merely served as a pastime for daily life rather than a fundamental necessity for state governance. He argued that rulers indulging in music and pleasure would neglect state affairs and jeopardize national order.
Echoing Mozi’s perspective, Mencius put forward the famous idea in Liang Hui Wang II that “enjoying music alone is less joyful than enjoying it with the multitude”. He criticized King Hui of Liang for indulging in vulgar secular music, wallowing in pleasure and neglecting his governance, condemning rulers who monopolized musical entertainment while abandoning their administrative duties.
Confucian admiration for music is vividly reflected in The Analects. The classic records that “after hearing the Shao music in Qi, Confucius could not taste meat for three months”. This account fully demonstrates Confucius’ profound appreciation and high esteem for elegant orthodox ritual music.
Later, in his Discourse on Music, Xunzi explicitly criticized Mozi’s “Rejecting Music” theory and elaborated on the positive value of music. He maintained that music is rooted in human nature and serves as an indispensable emotional outlet for mankind. All humans experience joy, which inevitably finds expression through singing, chanting, dancing and gesturing. The expression of joy is an innate human instinct that cannot be suppressed. However, unrestrained emotional outpouring without proper guidance and regulation will lead to chaos and disorder.
Utilitarian Redefinition:
In the final paragraph, Mozi employs a pragmatic redefinition. By equating “having no music” with “having an insignificant amount of music,” he shifts the debate from an absolute prohibition to a utilitarian threshold, arguing that music should only exist at the absolute minimum necessary.
The Taut Bow and Harnessed Horse:
Cheng Fan uses this vivid metaphor to argue that denying music to rulers and commoners alike violates human physiological and psychological limits, equating Mozi’s doctrine to relentless, exhausting labor without rest.
Thatched Cottages:
A cultural symbol of extreme frugality and moral purity. By claiming that Yao and Shun treated thatched cottages as “ritual and music,” Mozi redefines aesthetic and cultural values entirely through the lens of practical survival and moral simplicity.
Historical Musical Compositions Hu, Nine Shao, Xiang, Zouyu:
These are famous ancient court music suites. While Confucians revered them as the pinnacle of cultural achievement, Mozi lists them merely as historical data points to prove his thesis that increasing musical complexity coincided with decreasing political perfection.
程繁问于子墨子曰：“夫子曰：‘圣王不为乐。’昔诸侯倦于听治，息于钟鼓之乐；士大夫倦于听治，息于竽瑟之乐；农夫春耕、夏耘、秋敛、冬藏，息于聆缶之乐。今夫子曰：’圣王不为乐。’此譬之犹马驾而不税，弓张而不弛，无乃非有血气者之所不能至邪！”
子墨子曰：“昔者尧舜有茅茨者，且以为礼，且以为乐。汤放桀于大水，环天下自立以为王，事成功立，无大后患，因先王之乐，又自作乐，命曰《护》，又修《九招》，武王胜殷杀纣，环天下自立以为王，事成功立，无大后患，因先王之乐，又自作乐，命曰《象》。周成王因先王之乐，又自作乐，命曰《驺虞》。周成王之治天下也，不若武王；武王之治天下也，不若成汤；成汤之治天下也，不若尧舜。故其乐逾繁者，其治逾寡。自此观之，乐非所以治天下也。”
程繁曰：“子曰：‘圣王无乐。’此亦乐已，若之何其谓圣王无乐也？”子墨子曰：“圣王之命也，多寡之，食之利也。以知饥而食之者，智也，因为无智矣。今圣有乐而少，此亦无也。”
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